Interview: Maria Allen on How HP and EDS Uniquely Combine to Assist Financial Markets Amid Turmoil

Transcript of BriefingsDirect podcast recorded at Oracle OpenWorld conference in San Francisco the week of Sept. 22, 2008.

Listen to the podcast. Download the podcast. Find it on iTunes/iPod. Learn more. Sponsor: Hewlett-Packard.

Dana Gardner: Hi, this is Dana Gardner principal analyst at Interarbor Solutions and you're listening to a BriefingsDirect Podcast recorded at the Oracle OpenWorld conference in San Francisco. We're here the week of Sept. 22, 2008. This HP Live! podcast is sponsored by Hewlett-Packard (HP) and distributed via the BriefingsDirect Network.

Today, we welcome Maria Allen, EDS vice president at leader of the Global Financial Services and Products Group at EDS, and HP company.

We 're going to be discussing the financial services sector at a very tumultuous time in its history, look at how HP and EDS together are bringing services to that market, and get a better understanding of how technology and transformation services can help these companies in the financial sector at a crucial time. Welcome to the show, Maria.

Maria Allen: Thank you very much. Glad to be here.

Gardner: The last few weeks and, I suppose, the last year and a half have been very eventful for Wall Street, the City of London and other major financial centers around the world.

The last two weeks have demonstrated some unprecedented volatility and, in some respects, a level of uncertainty not seen in 70 or more years. This is a time when financial companies, banks, investment banks, and insurance companies are finding themselves on the fly and government intervention is taking place at unprecedented levels.

Tell us what EDS and your financial services group do and set the stage about the history in the financial services sector. What has been put in place that allows some companies to weather the storm and react and be agile in this environment better than others?

Allen: Sure. EDS has been focusing on the financial industry for over 40 years. So, we have had quite a bit of exposure and experience. We have actually gone through many of the transformational activities within the industry.

In fact, back in the late 1980s when the Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC) took over a lot of the savings and loans institutions, EDS was actually a partner of the RTC and helped integrate and clean a lot of the portfolios that the RTC had taken over. What we try to do is bring our experience into the financial institutions to enable them to integrate to better manage their business, to have a better control over their cost, and prepare them for better times.

Many of the institutions back in the 1980s, as they are today, were very focused on reducing their cost, so that they would have additional funds to invest to get them to a better financial position. We have used our experience in the technology sector to reduce cost, integrate their systems, use our outsourcing services to better manage the business, and, again, prepare them for better times.

Gardner: Now, of course, these organizations aren't just dealing with today's worries. There are longer-term trends afoot. They're dealing with such issues as Sarbanes-Oxley, Basel II, and the payment card industry (PCI) data standards. Many of these involve important regulatory, security, and risk management issues, and we are probably going to see some more regulatory issues coming down the pike.

How do you work with these companies to put them in a position of dealing with tactical, short-term, and crisis-level issues, and also put in place what they need to adhere to for these longer-term issues around risk and compliance?

Allen: Because of our experience and the fact that we have worked with many financial institutions and banks around the world, we are constantly making sure that we have the right information and the right insight in terms of the regulatory issues that the banks are experiencing. We have worked with many of the banks to ensure that not only their datacenters and their infrastructure, but also their services, have the right key risk indicators that enables them to be compliant with the various regulations.

You mentioned Sarbanes-Oxley, Basel II, all the privacy acts, and MasterCard and Visa requirements to be PCI compliant. EDS is investing quite a bit to ensure that we are not only complying ourselves, but also that our clients meet the compliance requirements of the issuing companies.

There has been a lot of focus in the privacy and security areas. Data management is one of the areas that we have been focused on, but our experience in running the systems for many of the banks throughout the last 40 years has better positioned us to address the needs and the requirements of the regulators and the banks together.

Gardner: Of course, the role of technology has never been more important. Many business sectors look to the financial services arena for some guidance. In many cases, leading adopters are found in the financial sector. Also, they tend to keep their technology. So, there are legacy, integration, and modernization requirements, perhaps larger in number than in any other sector.

Tell us a little bit about how technology transit, service-oriented architecture (SOA), business intelligence (BI), complex event processing (CEP), risk management, and process management come together to help organizations deal with an unprecedented need for visibility and predictability during rough times.

Allen: Using our experience in financial services, we recognize the importance of having data transparency. That is absolutely the key to addressing the requirements that banks have around privacy and ensuring that they have the right key risk indicators to respond to the regulatory requirements.

We've done a lot of work in the area of data management, the integration aspects, and legacy modernization. We have quite a bit of focus in that area to help the financial institutions have better transparency across their silos.

There is still a lot of work to be done. So there is a big opportunity for EDS and HP together to really enable the transformation that the banks have really been focused on. It's difficult for them to stay on track, when they have all these other issues around regulatory compliance and the market turmoil in subprime mortgages and the credit pressures.

There is an opportunity for EDS and HP together to capitalize on the activities in the marketplace, and position ourselves as key players with the financial institutions and the government agencies. That's one of the key areas that we need to be focused on, looking at government agencies, because they are going to need a lot of help. The FDIC, with the banks that are going under that they are taking over, needs data management, and there is a huge opportunity for us to work together around that space.

Gardner: Now, EDS is in many of these government organizations, as well as these financial institutions, both public and privately held ones. This does put you in a unique position, when it comes to government taking over assets, but then having the managers within these organizations manage those assets for the government. Tell us at this early stage how you understand this could work and the unique role that that EDS and HP would play in that?

Allen: Well, that's going to be interesting to see, because there is actually a lot of discussion around that. For example, Freddy Mac and Fannie Mae, and what the federal government is going to do to integrate these two agencies. One of those agencies is a client of EDS. So, we're very well positioned to help the government not only do the integration, but also clean the portfolio to better position the agency to transform itself, because we see transformation going on at the same time.

Five or maybe ten years from now, the financial markets may be very different. It may look very different in the U.S. One of the key areas is going to be the real estate lending, residential lending business. We can capitalize from the relationships that we have, not only with the agencies, but also the banks and other financial institutions that are looking to enhance and position themselves to be a survivor during this transformation in the market.

Gardner: For the edification of our audience, HP purchased EDS recently. The completion went through, and now EDS is a wholly owned company within the HP family of companies. We just wanted to point that out. Given the opportunity in the financial sector, and given that HP has had a long services heritage as well, tell us how HP and EDS together can offer something different than they could have individually just a few months ago?

Allen: It's a big opportunity for EDS to capitalize on the relationships that HP has across the global financial industry marketplace. HP brings a set of customers that is potentially much broader than what EDS has. There are a few very large financial institutions where we both have relationships, but there is a lot of opportunity for us to work together and enable that transformation that's going on in the marketplace for financial services.

I can't wait to get started working with the HP Financial Industry Group. We have some activities scheduled in the next couple weeks to assess and determine how we address some of the activities and opportunities that we see in the market. We are already working together on a very large opportunity in the statement print area. We see a lot of more of that type of large opportunities coming to both of us.

Gardner: In addition to how the two companies come together in terms of their services, offerings, and value, there are also some adjustments in terms of channel and sales. Is there a philosophy of how to approach this market that may differ from some of your competitors, perhaps becoming more of a partner with many of the global systems integrators? How does that shake out in terms of how you actually go to market now that you are together?

Allen: We have an opportunity to definitely integrate some of our business in our channel strategy. However, there is also an opportunity to keep a very open mind as to how we go about the market, because there are some key agility alliance partners that we have who have enabled the growth in our business.

Oracle is one of them. We work very closely with Oracle in the financial industry, because of their breadth of solutions in our industry. HP also has a very strong relationship with Oracle. So, there is a lot of opportunity for us to explore different channel partnerships and different ways to address certain markets.

Gardner: I wonder if you have any sense -- and again, it's a little early -- of how IT spending in the financial services sector will pan out. There are, on one hand, the services and opportunities that you have discussed, but with consolidation, perhaps there is also some slackening in growth in some other areas. Do you have a sense at this point, given the turmoil in the financial services market, of how market growth might be impacted across a variety of the major services and product segments?

Allen: IT spending is an interesting subject that financial institutions always look at. The average spent on IT in the financial industry is about seven percent of revenue.

I have a very different approach to looking at what a financial institution spends across the board. I was look at non-interest expense, because I think it's important to look at the total cost of doing business. If you have a financial institution that's really focused on improving operations and their services, integrating the silos that they have today, and bringing some automation to SOA, then that means that their overall cost is going to be impacted positively.

Their overall non-interest expense hopefully is going to shrink, as they work with companies like EDS and HP together. I see IT cost growing, but for a total benefit, if you will. So, there is an opportunity for us to work together and see how we can impact the total spend within a financial institution.

Gardner: The pie grows, but perhaps as a percentage of revenues for individual companies it decreases.

Allen: Exactly.

Gardner: I wonder if you can share with us any case studies. If you can mention a company, that's great. If not, perhaps you can describe the type of company and project and relationship and give some examples of how EDS Financial Services has created this benefit of employing technology in such a way as that you can get more bang for the buck.

Allen: I can't mention the name of the bank, but it is a European bank, a very large mortgage lender in the U.K. EDS started working with this bank about five years ago. They had the desire to reduce their total cost of mortgage processing. So, EDS took over their operations, both their systems and their back office servicing operations to bring automation and enhance the way they approach the market.

It was very, very successful. We integrated their systems, took over their back office, reduced their total cost of mortgage processing, and were very successful within three years of taking that business over. So, we have had a lot of experience. The back-office processing does have a huge impact in a financial institution's total cost of doing business. Our experience can be applied to many different institutions and many different business operations across the financial institution.

Gardner: Well, great. We've been talking about the financial services sector, and we've been trying to understand in these tumultuous times the benefit of increasing value and lowering cost, but also increasing the need for transformation, integration, and agility, particularly as we are seeing the reformation of companies under different types of ownership, unprecedented types of ownership. And, we've been talking about how EDS and HP have come together as companies, and are going to be going out to this market with a variety of services and support.

We've been discussing this with Maria Allen. She is a vice president at EDS and leads the Global Financial Services and Products Group. We certainly appreciate your time, and your interesting comments on these subjects.

Allen: Thank you, very much.

Gardner: Our conversation today comes to you through a sponsored Hewlett-Packard Live! podcast from the Oracle Open World Conference in San Francisco. Look for other podcast from this HP Live! event series at www.hp.com, as well as via the BriefingsDirect Network.

I like to thank our producers on today's show, Fred Bals and Kate Whalen. I'm Dana Gardner, principal analyst at Interarbor Solutions. Thanks for listening, and come back next time for more in-depth podcasts on enterprise IT topics. Bye for now.

Listen to the podcast. Download the podcast. Find it on iTunes/iPod. Learn more. Sponsor: Hewlett-Packard.

Transcript of BriefingsDirect podcast recorded at the Oracle OpenWorld Conference in San Francisco. Copyright Interarbor Solutions, LLC, 2005-2008. All rights reserved.

Enterprises Seek Ways to Exploit Web Application Mashups and Lightweight Data Presentation Techniques

Transcript of BriefingsDirect podcast on data mashups with IBM and Kapow.

Listen to the podcast here. Sponsor: Kapow Technologies.

Dana Gardner: Hi, this is Dana Gardner, principal analyst at Interarbor Solutions, and you’re listening to BriefingsDirect. Today, a sponsored podcast discussion about the state of choice in the modern enterprise around development and deployment technologies.

These days, developers, architects and even line-of-business managers have many choices. This includes things like Web applications, software-as-a-service (SaaS), Services Oriented Architecture (SOA), RESTful applications, mashups, pure services off the Web, and pure services from within an Intranet or even the extended enterprise. We’re talking about RSS and Atom feeds, and, of course, there is a traditional .NET and Java going on.

We also see people experimenting with Ruby and a lot of use around PHP and scripting. The good news is that there are a lot of choices. The bad news is also that there are a lot of choices.

Some of these activities are taking place outside the purview of IT managers. People are being innovative and creative, which is good, but perhaps not always in the way that IT would like in terms of security and access control. These newer activities may not align with some of the larger activities that IT needs to manage -- which many times these days includes consolidation, unification, and modernization of legacy applications.

To help us weed through some of the agony and ecstasy of the choices facing application development and deployment in the enterprise, we have on the call, Rod Smith. Rod is Vice President of Internet Emerging Technologies at IBM. Welcome to the show, Rod.

Rod Smith: Thank you very much. It’s nice to be here.

Gardner: We also have Stefan Andreasen, the Founder and CTO of Kapow Technologies. Welcome to the show, Stefan.

Stefan Andreasen: Thank you.

Gardner: Let’s go first to Rod. We spoke last spring about these choices and how there are, in effect, myriad cultures that are now involved with development. In past years, development was more in a closed environment, where people were under control … white coats, raised floors, and glass rooms come to mind. But now it’s more like the Wild West. What have you been finding in the field, and do you see this as chaos or opportunity?

Smith: A little of both. In times of innovation you get some definite chaos coming through, but IT, in particular, and line of businesses see this as a big opportunity. Because of SOA and the other technologies you mentioned, information is available, and line of business is very interested in capturing new business opportunities.

Time to market is getting shorter, and getting squeezed all the time. So you’re seeing line of business and IT coming together around what they have to do to drive more innovation and move it up a couple of notches, from a business perspective.

Open standards now are very important to IT. Line of business, with mashups in particular, can use those types of services to get the information and create solutions they couldn’t do in the labs, when the propeller heads and others had to be involved five or 10 years ago.

Gardner: So we have dual or maybe multiple tracks going on. I suppose what’s missing is methodological and technical management. That’s an area where IBM has been involved for some time. Does IBM look at this as an opportunity?

Smith: A big opportunity. And you hit it on the head. The methodology here is very different from the development methodology we’ve been brought up to do. It’s much more collaborative, if you’re line of business, and it’s much more than a set of specifications.

Here is where we’re seeing people talk about building mashups. Usually they have a really good idea that comes to mind or something that they think will help with a new business opportunity.

Often the second question -- and we’ve seen a pattern with this -- is “Where is the data? How do we get to the data? Can IT open it up for us? Do line-of-business people have it in spreadsheets?” Typically, when it’s valuable to the business, they want to catalog it and put it together, so other people can share it. Finally, they do a mashup.

So methodology is one of the things we call a self-service business pattern. It starts with the idea, from a developer standpoint. "I really need to understand the business. I need to understand the time to market and the partnerships, and how information can be exposed." Then, they get down into some of the details. "I've got to do it quickly."

What we are seeing from an opportunity standpoint is that many businesses, when they see an opportunity, want a vendor to respond in 30 days or less, [and do more] within six months down the road. So that’s a challenge, and it is an opportunity. We think about tooling and middleware and services. How can we help the customer?

Gardner: Let’s go to Stefan. When you see these activities in the enterprise around mashups, SOAP, REST, HTML and XML, there’s an opportunity for bridging the chaos, but I suppose there’s also a whole new type of development around situational applications.

That is to say that, an opportunity exists to access content that hadn’t really been brought into an application development activity in the past. Can you tell us a little bit about what you’re seeing in the enterprise and how these new types of development are manifesting themselves?

Andreasen: Let me comment on the chaos thing a little bit. It’s important to understand the history here. At first, central IT worked with all their big systems. Line of business really didn’t have any access to IT or tools themselves, until recently when they got desktop tools like Excel.

This current wave is really driven by line of business getting IT in their own hands. They’ve started using it, and that’s created the chaos, but chaos is created because there is a need.

Now, with the Web 2.0 and the mashup wave, there is an acknowledgement of a big need here, as Rod also said. So it’s necessary to understand why this is happening and why it is something that’s very important.

Gardner: These end-users, power users, these line of business folks, they’ve been using whatever tools have been available to them, even if it’s an Excel spreadsheet. I suppose that gives them some productivity, but it also leaves these assets, data and content, lying around on hard drives in a fairly unmanaged perspective.

Can we knock two birds down with one stone in terms of managing this chaos in terms of the data, but also bring together some interface and application development benefits?

Andreasen: The worst thing would be to shut it down, of course. The best thing that’s happening now is acknowledging that line-of-business people need to do their own thing. We need to give them the tools, environments and infrastructure so they can do it in a controlled way -- in an acceptable, secured way -- so that your laptop with all of your customer data doesn't get stolen at the airport.

When we talk about customer data, we leap back to your earlier question about data. What are line-of-business people working with? Well, they’re working with data, analyzing data, and finding intelligence in that data, drawing conclusions out of the data, or inventing new products with the data. So the center of the universe here for this IT work is really dealing with data.

Gardner: SOA is one of the things that sits in the middle between the traditional IT approaches and IT development and then these newer activities around data, access, and UIs and using Web protocols.

I wonder if you think that that’s where these things meet. Is there a way to use an enterprise service bus (ESB) for checking in and out of provisioned or governed services? Is there a way that mashups and the ERP applications meet up?

Smith: The answer is yes. Without SOA we probably wouldn't have gotten to a place where we can think about mashable content or remixable content.

What you are seeing from customers is the need to take internal information and transform it into XML or RESTful services. There’s a good match between ESB things … [and] thinking about security and other pieces of it, and then building the Rich Internet Application (RIA) type of applications.

The part you touched on before is interesting, too. And I think Stefan would agree with me. One thing we learned as we opened up this content is that it isn't just about IT managing or controlling it. It’s really a partnership now.

One thing Stefan has with Kapow that really got us talking early was the fact that for Stefan’s content they have a freshness style. We found that same thing is very important. The line of business wants to be involved when information is available and published. That’s a very different blending of responsibility than we've seen before on this.

So thinking forward you can imagine that while you are publishing this, you might be putting it into a catalog repository or into services. But it also has to available for line of business now to be able to look at those assets and work with IT on when they should be available to business partners, customers and others.

Gardner: It’s interesting you mentioned the word "publish," and it’s almost as if we are interchanging the words "publishing" and "application development" in the sense that they are munging or overlapping.

Does that fit with what Kapow has been seeing, Stefan, that publishing and syndication are now a function of application development?

Andreasen: There are several sides to this question of which data you need, how to access it, how it is published, etc. One thing you are talking about is line of business publishing their data so other people can use it.

I split data into several groups. One is what I call core data, the data that is generally available to everybody in the company and probably sits in your big systems. It’s something everybody has. It’s probably something that's service-oriented or is going to be very soon.

Then there is the more specialized data that’s sitting out in line of business. There's a tendency now to publish those in standard formats like RSS, RESTful services, etc.

There's is a third group, which I call intelligence data. That's hard to find, but gives you that extra insight, extra intelligence, to let you draw a conclusion which is different from -- and hopefully better than -- your competitors’.

That’s data that’s probably not accessible in any standard way, but will be accessible on the Web in a browser. This is exactly what our product does. It allows you to turn any Web-based data into standard format, so you can access what I call intelligence data in a standard fashion.

Gardner: This is the type of data that had not been brought into use with applications in the past?

Andreasen: That is correct. There is a lot of information that’s out there, both on the public Web and on the private Web, which is really meant to be human-readable information. You can just think about something as simple as going to U.S. Geological Service and looking at fault lines of earthquakes and there isn't any programmatic API to access this data.

This kind of data might be very important. If I am building a factory in an earthquake area, I don’t want to buy a lot that is right on the top of a fault line. So I can turn this data into a standard API, and then use that as part of my intelligence to find the best property for my new factory.

Smith: When we talk of line of business, it’s just not internal information they want. It's external information, and we really are empowering these content developers now. The types of applications that people are putting together are much more like dashboards of information, both internally and externally over the Internet, that businesses use to really drive their business. Before, the access costs were high.

Now the access costs are continuing to drop very low, and people do say, "Let’s go ahead and publish this information, so it can be consumed and remixed by business partners and others,” rather than thinking about just a set of APIs at a low level, like we did in the past with Java.

Gardner: How do we bring these differing orbits into alignment? We've got people who are focused on content and the human knowledge dimension -- recognizing that more and more great information is being made available openly through the Web.

At the same time, we have this group that is API-minded. I guess we need to find a way of bringing an API to those folks who need that sort of interface to work with this data, but we also need for these people to take this data and make it available in such a way that a developer might agree with it or use it.

How does Kapow work between these constituencies and make one amenable to the other? We're looking for a way to bind together traditional IT development with some of these “mashupable” services, be it internal content or data or external services off of the Web.

I wonder what Kapow brings to the table in terms of helping these two different types of data and content to come together -- APIs versus content?

Andreasen: If you want to have automatic access to data or content, you need to be able to access it in a standard way. What is happening now with Web Oriented Architecture (WOA) is that we're focusing on a few standard formats like RESTful services and on feeds like RSS and Atom.

So first you need to be able to access your data that way. This is exactly what we do. Our customers turn data they work with in an application into these standard APIs and feeds, so they can work with them in an automated way.

It hadn’t been so much of a problem earlier, maybe because there wasn’t so much data, and people could basically cut and paste the data. But with the explosion of information out there, there's a realization that having the right data at the right time is getting more and more important. There is a huge need for getting access in an automated way.

How do line-of-business people work with the data? Well, they work with the data in the application interface. What if the application interface today is your browser?

Kapow allows the line-of-business people to automatically access data the way they worked with it in their Web browser.

That’s a very powerful way of accessing data, because you don't have to have an extra level of IT personnel. You don't have to first explain, "Well, this is the data I need. Go find it for me." And then, maybe you get the wrong data. Now, you are actually getting the data that you see the way you want.

Gardner: Another aspect to this is the popularity of social networking and what's known as the "wisdom of crowds" and wikis. A lot of contributions can be brought into play with this sort of gray area between content and publishing, different content feeds, and exposure and access and the traditional IT function.

Wikis have come into play, and they have quite a bit of exposure. Maybe you have a sense of how these worlds can be bridged, using some of what's been known as social networking?

Smith: Software development now is much more of a social networking activity than an engineering activity. At IBM, we have Blog and Wiki Central, where people use wikis to get their thoughts down and collectively bring an idea about.

Also at IBM, we have Innovation Jam, which we hold every year, and which brings in hundreds of thousands of people now. It used to be just IBM, but we’ve opened it up this last year to everyone, friends and family alike, to come up with ideas.

That part is great on the front end. You then can have a much better idea of what the expectations are, and what a user group wants. They're usually very motivated to stay in the loop to give you feedback as you do development.

The big part here is when it comes to doing mashups. It's the idea that you can produce something relatively quickly. With IBM’s QEDWiki, we like the idea that someone could assemble an application, wire it together in the browser, and it has the wiki characteristics. That is, it's stored on the server, it’s versioned as to enterprise characteristics, and it’s sharable.

It’s a key aspect that it has to be immediately deployable and immediately accessible by the folks that you are networking with.

That relates to what Stefan was saying and what you were asking about on how to bridge the two worlds of APIs and content. We're seeing now that as you think about the social networking side, people want the apps built into dashboards.

The more forward-thinking people in IT departments realize that the faster they can put together publishable data content, they can get a deeper understanding in a very short time about what their customers want.

They can then go back and decide the best way to open up that data. Is it through syndication feeds, XML, or programmatic API? Before, IT had to guess usage and how many folks might be touching it, and then build it once and make it scalable.

We’re doing things much more Agile-wise and building it that way, and then, as a flip, building the app that’s probably 80 percent there. Then IT can figure out how they could open up the right interfaces and content to make it available broadly.

Gardner: Stefan, could you give us some examples of user scenarios, where Kapow has been brought in and has helped mitigate some of the issues of access to content and then made it available to traditional development? Is there a way for those folks who are perhaps SOA-minded, to become a bit more open to what some people refer to as Web-Oriented Architecture?

Andreasen: One example that was mentioned in The Wall Street Journal recently in an article on mashups. It was on Audi in Germany. They are using our product to allow line of business to repurpose existing Intranets.

Let’s say that a group of people want to take what’s already there, but tweak it, combine it, and maybe expose it as a mobile application. With our tool, they can now do that in a self-service way, and then, of course, they can share that. What’s important is that they published this mini-mashup into their WebSphere portal and shared it with other people.

Some of them might just be for individual use. One important thing about a mashup is that an individual often creates it. Then it either stops there, because only that individual needs it – or it can also grow into company-wide use and eventually be taken over by central IT, as a great new way to improve performance in the entire company. So that shows one of the benefits.

Other examples have a lot to do with external data -- for example, in pricing comparisons. Let’s say I'm an online retailer and suddenly Amazon enters the market and starts taking a lot of market share, and I really don’t understand why. You can use our product to go out and harvest, let’s say, all the data from digital cameras from Amazon and from your own website.

You can quickly find out that whenever I have the lowest price, my product is out of stock -- and whenever I have a price that's too high, I don’t sell anything. Being able to constantly monitor that and optimize my prices is another example.

Another very interesting piece of information you can get is vendor pricing. You can know your own profit margin. Maybe it’s very low on Nikon cameras. You see that eBay is offering the Nikon cameras below even your cost as the vendor. You know for sure that buyers are getting a better deal with Nikon than you can offer. I call this using data to create intelligence and improve your business.

Gardner: All this real-time, updated content and data on the Web can be brought into many aspects of what enterprises do -- business processes, purchasing, evaluation, and research.

I suppose a small amount of effort from a mashup could end up saving a significant amount of money, because you’re bringing real-time information to those people making decisions.

How about you on your side, Rod? Any examples of how these two worlds -- the peanut butter and chocolate, if you will -- come together for a little better snack?

Smith: I’ll give you a good one. It’s an interesting one we did as a technology preview with Reuters and AccuWeather. Think about this again from the business perspective, where two business folks met at a conference and chit-chatted a bit.

AccuWeather was talking about how they offer different types of services, and the Reuters CTO said, "You know, we have this commodity-shipping dashboard, and folks can watch the cargo go from one place to another. It’s odd that we don’t have any weather information in there.” And the question came up very quickly: "I wonder how hard it would be to mash in some weather information."

We took one of their folks, one of mine, and the person from AccuWeather. They sat down over about three or four hours, figured out the scenario that Reuters was interested in and where the data came from, and they put it together. It took them about two weeks, but altogether 17 hours -- and that’s over a beer.

So it was chocolate and nuts and beer. I was in pretty good shape at that point. The interesting thing came after that. When we showed it to Reuters, they were very thrilled with the idea that you have that re-mixibility of content. They said that weather probably would be interesting, but piracy is a lot more interesting. "And, by the way" -- and this is from the line of business person -- "I know where to get that information."

Gardner: Now when you say "piracy," you mean the high seas and the Jolly Roger flying up on the mast -- that kind of thing?

Smith: That’s it. I didn’t even know it existed anymore. In 2006, there were 6,000 piracy events.

Gardner: Hijackings at sea?

Smith: Yes.

Gardner: Wow!

Smith: I had no idea. It turned out that the information was a syndication feed. So we pulled it in and could put it on a map, so you could look at the different events.

It took about two hours, but that’s that kind of dynamic now. The line-of-business person says, "Boy, if that only took you that much time, then I have a lot of ideas, which I’ve really not talked about before. I always knew that if I mentioned one more feature or function, IT would tell me, it takes six more months to do."

We've seen a huge flip now. Work is commensurate with some results that come quickly. Now we will see more collaboration coming from IT on information and partnerships.

Gardner: This networking-collaboration or social interaction is really what’s crafting the new level of requirements. Instead of getting in line behind 18 six-month projects, 12 to 20 hours can be devoted by people who are perhaps on the periphery of IT.

They're still under the auspices of what’s condoned under IT and make these mashups happen, so that it’s users close to the issues, close to where the creativity can begin that create a requirement, and then binds these two worlds together.

Smith: That’s correct, and what is interesting about it is, if you think about what I just described -- where we mashed in some data with AccuWeather -- if that had been an old SOA project of nine or 18 months, that would have been a significant investment for us, and would have been hard to justify.

Now, if that takes a couple of weeks and hours to do -- even if it fails or doesn’t hit the right spot -- it was a great tool for learning what the other requirements were, and other things that we try as a business.

That’s what a lot of this Web 2.0 and mashups are about -- new avenues for communication, where you can be engaged and you can look at information and how you can put things together. And it has the right costs associated with it -- inexpensive.

If I were going to sum up a lot of Web 2.0 and mashups, the magnitude of drop in “customization cost” is phenomenal.

Gardner: And that spells high return on value, right?

Smith: That’s right.

Gardner: How do you see this panning out in the future? Let’s look in our crystal ball. How do you see this ability of taking intelligence, as you call it, around the content, and then the line-of-business people coming in and making decisions about requirements, and how they want to tune or see the freshness of the content?

What’s going to happen in two or three years, now that we are bringing these things together?

Andreasen: There will be a lot more of what Rod just described. What Rod just mentioned is an early move, and a lot of companies aren't even thinking along these lines yet. Over the next one or two years, more people will realize the opportunity and the possibility here, and start doing it more. Eventually, it’s going to explode.

People will realize that getting the right data and the right content at the right time, and using that to create more intelligence is one thing. The other thing they’ll realize is that by networking with peers and colleagues, they'll get ideas and references to new data. All of these aspects -- the social aspects, the data aspect and the mashup aspect -- will be much more realized. I think it’s going to explode in usage.

Gardner: Any last thoughts, Rod, from where you see these things going?

Smith: Well, as we see in other technologies moving through from an SOA perspective, this is a great deal about cultural change within companies, and the technology barriers are coming down dramatically.

You don’t have to be a Java expert or a C# expert. I'm scary enough to be able to put together or find solutions for my own needs. It’s creating a way that line-of-business people are empowered and they can see business results quickly.

That also helps IT, because if the line of business is happy, then IT can justify the necessary middleware. That’s a fundamental shift. It's no longer an IT world, where they can promise a solution to the line of business 12 to 18 months down the road.

It’s much more of, "Show me something quickly. When I’ve got the results in my hand -- the dashboard -- then you can explain what I need to do for IT investments and other things."

It’s more collaboration at that point, and makes a lot of sense on governance, security, and other things. I can see the value of my app, and I can actually start using that to bring value to my company.

Gardner: I suppose another important aspect culturally is that part of SOA’s value is around reuse. These mashups and using this content in association with other different activities, in a sense promotes the notion of reuse.

You're thinking about, "How can I reuse this mashup? How can I extend this content, either off the Web or internally, into new activities?" That, in a sense, greases the skids toward more SOA, which I think is probably where IT is going to be heading anyway.

Smith: Well, what’s fun about this, and I think Stefan will agree, is that when I go to a customer, I don’t take PowerPoint charts anymore. I look on their website and I see if they have some syndication feeds or some REST interfaces or something.

Then I look around and I see if I can create a mashup of their material with other material that hadn’t been built with before. That’s compelling.

People look and they start to get excited because, as you just said, they see business patterns in that. "If you could do that, could you grab this other information from so-and-so?"

It’s almost like a jam session at that point, where people come up with ideas. That’s where we will see more of these examples. Actually, a lot of our stuff is on YouTube, where we had a retail store that wanted to see their stores on Google Maps and then see the weather, because weather is an important factor in terms of their businesses.

In fact, it’s one of the most important factors. What we didn’t realize is that very simple pattern -- from a technology standpoint it didn’t take much -- held up over and over again. If it wasn’t a store, it was banking location. If it wasn’t banking locations, it was ships. There were combinations in here that you could talk to your businessperson about.

Then you could say to the technologist or a developer, "What do I have to do to help them achieve that?" They don’t have to learn XML, Web objects, or anything else, because you have these SOA interfaces. It helps IT expand that whole nature of SOA into their enterprise.

Andreasen: One thing that's going to happen is that line-of-business people are getting a lot of great ideas. If I am working with business problems, I constantly get ideas about how to solve things. Usually, I just brush it away and say, "Well, it will be cool to have this, but it’s impossible."

They just don’t understand that the time from idea to implementation is dramatically going to go down. When they start realizing this, there is hidden potential out on the edge of the business that will now be cut loose and create a lot of value. It’s going to be extremely interesting to see.

Smith: One of the insights we have from customers is that mashups and this type of technology help them to visualize their SOA investments. You can’t see middleware. Your IT shop tells you what’s good, they tell you they get flexibility, but they want to be shown results -- and mashups help do that.

The second part is people say it completes the "last mile" for SOA. It starts to make a lot of sense for your IT shop to be able to show how the middleware can be used in ways it wasn’t necessarily planned for.

The big comment we hear is, "I want my content to be mashable or re-mixable." We figured out that it’s very much a SOA value. They want things to be used in ways they weren't planned for originally. Show me that aggressive new business opportunity, and you make me a very happy person.

Andreasen: Probably one thing we will see in companies is some resistance from the technologists, from central IT, because they are afraid they will lose control. They are afraid of the security issues etc., but it will probably be like what we've seen with company wikis.

They're coming in the back door in line of business and eventually the companies buy the company-wide wiki. I think we'll see the same thing with mashups. It will be starting out in line of business, and eventually the whole company understands, "Well, we have to have infrastructure that solves this problem in a controlled way."

Some companies have very strict policy today. They don’t even allow their line-of-business pros to write macros in Excel. Those companies are probably the ones that will be the last ones discovering the huge potential in mashups.

I really hope they also start opening their eyes that there are other roles for IT, rather than just the big, central system that run your business.

Gardner: Well, great -- thanks very much for your insights. This has really helped me understand better how these things relate and really what the payoff is. It sounds compelling from the examples that you provided.

To help us understand how enterprises are using Web applications, mashups, and lightweight data presentation, we’ve been chatting today with Rod Smith, Vice President of Internet Emerging Technologies at IBM. I really appreciate your time, Rod.

Smith: Thank you.

Gardner: And Stefan Andreasen, the Founder and CTO of Kapow Technologies. Thanks for joining, Stefan.

Andreasen: It’s been a pleasure, Dana.

Gardner: This is Dana Gardner, principal analyst at Interarbor Solutions, and you've been listening to a BriefingsDirect. Thanks for listening and come back next time.

Listen to the podcast here. Sponsor: Kapow Technologies.

Transcript of BriefingsDirect podcast on data mashups with IBM and Kapow. Copyright Interarbor Solutions, LLC, 2005-2008. All rights reserved.

Holiday Peak Season Hits for Retailers Alibris and QVC -- A Logistics and Shipping Carol

Transcript of BriefingsDirect podcast on peak season shipping efficiencies and UPS retail solutions with Alibris and QVC.

Listen to the podcast here. Sponsor: UPS.

Dana Gardner: Hi, this is Dana Gardner, principal analyst at Interarbor Solutions and you're listening to BriefingsDirect.

Today, a sponsored podcast discussion about the peak holiday season for retail shopping -- online and via television -- and the impact that this large bump in the road has logistically and technically for some major retailers.

We’re going to discuss how Alibris, an online media and bookseller, as well as QVC, a global multimedia shopping network, handles this peak demand issue. The peak is culminating for such shippers as UPS this week, right around Dec. 19, 2007.

We’re going to talk about how the end-user in this era of higher expectations is now accustomed to making a phone call or going online to tap in a few keystrokes, and then -- like Santa himself -- having a package show up within a day or two. It's instant gratification, if you will, from the logistics point-of-view.

Helping us understand how this modern miracle can be accomplished at such high scale and with such a huge amount of additional capacity required during the November and December shopping period, we’re joined by two guests. We’re going to be talking with Mark Nason, vice president of operations at Alibris, and also Andy Quay, vice president of outbound transportation at QVC. I want to welcome you both to the show.

Mark Nason: Thank you, Dana.

Gardner: Tell us a little bit about what’s different now for Alibris, given the peak season demands, over just a few years ago. Have the expectations of the end-user really evolved, and how do you maintain that sort of instant gratification despite the level of complexity required?

Nason: What we strive for is a consistent customer experience. Through the online order process, shoppers have come to expect a routine that is reliable, accurate, timely, and customer-centric. For us to do that internally it means that we prepare for this season throughout the year. The same challenges that we have are just intensified during this holiday time-period.

Gardner: For those who might not be familiar, tell us a little about Alibris. You sell books, used books, out-of-print books, rare media and other media -- and not just directly, but through an online network of independent booksellers and retailers. Tell us more about how that works.

Nason: Alibris has books you thought you would never find. These are books, music, movies, things in the secondary market with much more variety, and that aren’t necessarily found in your local new bookseller or local media store.

We aggregate -- through the use of technology -- the selection of thousands of sellers worldwide. That allows sellers to list things and standardize what they have in their store through the use of a central catalogue, and allows customers to find what they're looking for when it comes to a book or title on some subject that isn’t readily available through their local new books store or media seller.

Gardner: Now, this is a very substantial undertaking. We're talking about something on the order of 70 million books from a network of some 10,000 booksellers in 65 or more countries. Is that right?

Nason: Roughly, that’s correct. Going in and out of the network at any given time, we've got thousands of sellers with literally millions of book and other media titles. These need to be updated, not only when they are sold or added, but also when they are priced. Prices are constantly changing. It’s a very dynamic market.

Gardner: What is the difference in terms of the volume that you manage from your slowest time of the year compared to this peak holiday period, from mid-November through December?

Nason: It’s roughly 100 percent.

Gardner: Wow!

Nason: In this industry there are actually two peak time periods. We experience this during the back-to-school season that occurs both in January and the latter-half of August and into September.

Gardner: So at the end of the calendar year you deal with the holidays, but also for those college students who are entering into their second semester?

Nason: Exactly. Our peak season associated with the holidays in December extends well into January and even the first week of February.

Gardner: Given this network and the scale and volume and the number of different players, how do you manage a consistent response to your customers, even with a 100 percent increase at the peak season?

Nason: Well, you hit on the term we use a lot -- and that is "managing" the complexity of the arrangement. We have to be sure there is bandwidth available. It’s not just staffing and workstations per se. The technology behind it has to handle the workload on the website, and through to our service partners, which we call our B2B partners. Their volume increases as well.

So all the file sizes, if you will, during the transfer processes are larger, and there is just more for everybody to do. That bandwidth has to be available, and it has to be fully functional at the smaller size, in order for it to function in its larger form.

Gardner: I assume this isn’t something you can do entirely on your own, that you depend on partners, some of those B2B folks you mentioned. Tell us a little bit about some of the major ones, and how they help you ramp up.

Nason: In the area of fulfillment, we rely heavily on our third-party logistics partners, which include carriers. At our distribution centers, typically we lease space, equipment, and the labor required to keep up with the volume.

Then with our B2B partners -- those are the folks that buy from us on a wholesale or distribution basis -- we work out with them ahead of time what their volume estimates might be and what their demands on us would be. Then we work on scheduling when those files might come through, so we can be proactive in fulfilling those orders.

Gardner: When it comes to the actual delivery of the package, tell us how that works and how you manage that complexity and/or scale.

Nason: Well, we have a benefit in that we are in locations that have scalable capacity available from the carriers. That includes lift capacity at the airport, trucking capacity for the highway, and, of course, railheads. These are all issues we are sensitive to, when it comes to informing our carriers and other suppliers that we rely on, by giving them estimates of what we expect our volume to be. It gives them the lead time they need to have capacity there for us.

Gardner: I suppose communication is essential. Is there a higher level of integration handoff between your systems and their systems? Is this entering a more automated level?

Nason: It is, year-round. For peak season it doesn’t necessarily change in that form. The process remains. However, we may have multiple pick-ups scheduled throughout the day from our primary carriers, and/or we arrange special holiday calendar scheduling with those carriers for pick-up, perhaps on a Saturday, or twice on Mondays. If they are sensitive to weather or traffic delays, for example, we know the terminals they need to go through.

Gardner: How about returns? Is that something that you work with these carriers on as well? Or is that something you handle separately?

Nason: Returns are a fundamental part of our business. In fact, we do our best to give the customer the confidence of knowing that by purchasing in the secondary market, the transaction is indemnified, and returns are a definite part of our business on a day-to-day basis.

Gardner: What can we expect in the future? Obviously this volume continues, the expectations rise, and people are doing more types of things online. I suppose college students have been brought up with this, rather than it being something they have learned. It’s something that has always been there.

Do you see any prospects in the future for a higher level of technology need or collaboration need, how can we scale even further?

Nason: Constantly, the improvements in technology challenge the process, and managing the complexity is what you weigh against streamlining even further what we have available -- in particular, optimizing inter-modal transport. For example, with fuel costs skyrocketing, and the cost of everyone's time going up, through the use of technology we look for opportunities on back-haul lanes, or in getting partial loads filled before they move, without sacrificing the service interval.

These are the kinds of things that technology allows when it's managed properly. Of course, another layer of technology has to be considered from the complexity standpoint before you can be successful with it.

Gardner: Is there anything in the future you would like to see from such carriers as UPS, as they try to become your top partners on all of this?

Nason: Integration is the key, and by that I mean the features of service that they provide. It’s not simply transportation, it’s the trackability, it’s scaling; both on the volume side, but also in allowing us to give the customer information about the order, when it will be there, or any exceptions. They're an extension of Alibris in terms of what the customer sees for the end-to-end transaction.

Gardner: Fine, thanks. Now we’re going to talk with Andy Quay, the vice president of outbound transportation at QVC.

QVC has been having a very busy holiday peak season this year. And QVC, of course, has had an illustrious long-term play in pioneering, both retail through television and cable, as well as online.

Welcome Andy, and tell us a little bit about QVC and your story. How long you have been there?

Andy Quay: Well, I am celebrating my 21st anniversary this December. So I can say I have been through every peak season.

Although peak season 20 some years ago was nothing compared to what we are dealing with now. This has been an evolutionary process as our business has grown and become accepted by consumers across the country. More recently we’ve been able to develop with our website as well, which really augments our live television shows.

Gardner: Give us a sense of the numbers here. After 21 years this is quite a different ball game than when you started. What sort of volumes and what sort of records, if any, are we dealing with this year?

Quay: Well, I can tell you that in our first year in business, in December, 1986 -- and I still have the actual report, believe it or not -- we shipped 14,600 some-odd packages. We are currently shipping probably 350,000 to 450,000 packages a day at this point.

We've come a long way. We actually set a record this year by taking more than 870,000 orders in a 24-hour period on Nov. 11. This led to our typical busy season through the Thanksgiving holiday to the December Christmas season. We'll be shipping right up to Friday, Dec. 21 for delivery on Christmas.

Gardner: At QVC you sell a tremendous diversity of goods. Many of them you procure and deal with the supply chain yourselves, therefore cutting costs and offering quicker turnaround processing.

Tell us a little about the technology that goes into that, and perhaps also a little bit about what the expectations are now. Since people are used to clicking a button on their keyboard or making a quick phone call and then ... wow, a day or two later, the package arrives. Their expectations are pretty high.

Quay: That’s an excellent point. We’ve been seeing customer expectations get higher every year. More people are becoming familiar with this form of ordering, whether through the web or over the telephone.

I’ll also touch on the technology very briefly. We use an automated ordering system with voice response units that enable my wife, for example, to place an order in about 35 seconds. So that enables us to handle high volumes of orders. Using that technology has allowed us to take some 870,000 orders in a day.

The planning for this allows the supply chain to be very quick. We are like television broadcasts. We literally are scripting the show 24-hours in advance. So we can be very opportunistic. If we have a hot product, we can get it on the air very quickly and not have to worry about necessarily supplying 300 brick-and-mortar stores. Our turnaround time can be blindingly quick, depending upon how fast we can get the inventory into one of our distribution centers.

We currently have five distribution centers, and they are all along the East Coast of the U.S., and they are predominantly commodity driven. For example, we have specific commodities such as jewelry in one facility, and we have apparel and accessories as categories of goods in another facility. That lends itself to a challenge when people are ordering multiple items across commodities. We end up having to ship them separately. That’s a dilemma we have been struggling with as customers do more multi-category orders.

As I mentioned, the scripting of the SKUs for the broadcast is typically 24 hours prior, with the exception of Today's Special Value (TSV) show and other specific shows. We spend a great deal of time forecasting for the phone centers and the distribution carriers to ensure that we can take the orders in volume and ship them within 48 hours.

We are constantly focused on our cycle-time and in trying to turn those orders around and get them out the door as quickly as possible. To support this effort we probably have one of the largest "zone-jumping" operations in the country.

Gardner: And what does "zone-jumping" mean?

Quay: Zone jumping allows me to contract with truckload carriers to deliver our packages into the UPS network. We go to 14 different hubs across the country, in many cases using team drivers. This enables us to speed the delivery to the customer, and we’re constantly focused on the customer.

Gardner: And this must require quite a bit of integration, or at least interoperability in communications between your systems and UPS’s systems?

Quay: Absolutely, and we carefully plan leading up to the peak season we're in now. We literally begin planning this in June for what takes place during the holidays -- right up to Christmas Day.

We work very closely with UPS and their network planners, both ground and air, to ensure cost-efficient delivery to the customer. We actually sort packages for air shipments, during critical business periods, to optimize the UPS network.

Gardner: It really sounds like a just-in-time supply chain for retail.

Quay: It's as close as you can get it. As I sometimes say, it's "just-out-of-time"! We do certainly try for a quick turnaround.

Coming back to what you said earlier, as far as the competition goes it is getting more intense. The customer expectations are getting higher and higher. And, of course, we are trying to stay ahead of the curve.

Gardner: What's the difference between your peak season now and the more regular baseline of volume of business? How much increase do you have to deal with during this period, between late-November and mid- to late-December?

Quay: Well, it ramps up considerably. We can go from a 150,000 to 200,000 orders a day, to literally over 400,000 to 500,000 orders a day.

Gardner: So double, maybe triple, the volume?

Quay: Right. The other challenge I mentioned, the commodity-basis distribution that we operate on -- along with the volatility of our orders -- this all tends to focus on a single distribution center. We spend an inordinate amount of time trying to forecast volume, both for staffing and also planning with our carriers like UPS.

We want to know what buying is going to be shipping, at what distribution center, on what day. And that only compresses even more around the holiday period. We have specific cutoff times that the distribution center operations must hit in order to meet the customers' delivery date. We work very closely on when we dispatch trucks ... all of this leading up to our holiday cutoff sequence this week.

We try to maximize ground service versus the more expensive airfreight. I think we have done a very good job at penetrating UPS’s network to maximize ground delivery, all in an effort to keep the shipping and handling cost to the customers as low as possible.

Gardner: How about the future? Is this trend of that past 21 years sustainable? How far can we go?

Quay: I believe it is sustainable. Our web business is booming, with very high growth every year. And that really augments the television broadcast. We have, honestly, a fair amount of penetration, and we can still obtain more with our audiences.

Our cable broadcast is in 90 million-plus homes that actually receive our signal, but a relatively small portion actually purchase. So that’s my point. We have a long way to go to further penetrate and earn more customers. We have to get people to try us.

Gardner: And, of course, people are now also finding goods via Web search. For example, when they go to search for a piece of apparel, or a retail item, or some kind or a gift -- they might just go to, say, Google or Yahoo! or MSN, and type something in and end up on your web site. That gives you a whole new level of potential volume.

Quay: Well, it does, and we also make the website very well known. I am looking at our television show right now and we’ve have our www.qvc.com site advertised right on it. That provides an extended search capability. People are trying to do more shopping on the web, in addition to watching the television.

Gardner: We have synergies on the distribution side; we have synergies on the acquisition, and of using information and how to engage with partners. And so the technology is really in the middle of it all. And you also expect a tremendous amount of growth still to come.

Quay: Yes, absolutely. And it’s amazing, the different functions within QVC, the synergies that we work together internally. That goes from our merchandising to where we are sourcing product.

You mentioned supply chains, and the visibility of getting into the distribution center. Our merchants and programmers watch that like a hawk so they can script new items on the air. We have pre-scripted hours that we’re definitely looking to get certain products on.

The planning for the television broadcast is something that drives the back end of the supply chain. The coordination with our distribution centers -- as far as getting the operation forecast, staffed and fulfilled through shipping to our customers -- is outstanding.

Gardner: Well, it’s very impressive, given what you’ve done and all of these different plates that you need to keep spinning in the air -- while also keeping them coordinated. I really appreciate the daunting task, and that you have been able to reach this high level of efficiency.

Quay: Oh, we are not perfect yet. We are still working very hard to improve our service. It never slows down.

Gardner: Great. Thanks very much for your input. I have learned a bit more about this whole peak season, what really goes on behind the scenes at both QVC and Alibris. It seems like quite an accomplishment what you all are able to do at both organizations.

Nason: Well, thank you, Dana. Thanks for taking the time to hear about the Alibris story.

Gardner: Sure. This is Dana Gardner, principal analyst at Interarbor Solutions. We have been talking with Mark Nason, the vice president of operations at Alibris, about managing the peak season demand, and the logistics and technology required for a seamless customer experience.

We’ve also been joined by Andy Quay, vice president of outbound transportation, at the QVC shopping network.

Thanks to our listeners for joining on this BriefingsDirect sponsored podcast. Come back and listen again next time.

Listen to the podcast here. Sponsor: UPS.

Transcript of BriefingsDirect podcast on peak season shipping efficiencies and UPS retail solutions. Copyright Interarbor Solutions, LLC, 2005-2007. All rights reserved.

Transcript of B2B Search Trends Podcast Based on Enquiro's Survey Findings

Edited transcript of BriefingsDirect[TM] podcast on B2B search usage, trends and future direction with host Dana Gardner, recorded June 26, 2007.

Listen to the podcast here. Watch the video here. Sponsor: ZoomInfo.

Dana Gardner: Hi, this is Dana Gardner, principal analyst at Interarbor Solutions, and you're listening to a sponsored BriefingsDirect podcast. Today, a discussion about online search and its role in business-to-business (B2B) activities, particularly the research and acquisitions process for people who are in businesses trying to find goods and services. They seem to be using search more than ever.

We're going to look at a survey conducted last March, a fairly recent look at B2B users, their relationship to search, and how search is shifting based on the findings. Joining us to discuss this we have the originator of the survey, President and CEO of Enquiro Search Solutions, Gord Hotchkiss. Welcome to the show, Gord.

Gord Hotchkiss: Thank you.

Gardner: Also joining us to add some analysis and perspective on where search for B2B activities is going is Bryan Burdick, COO of ZoomInfo. Welcome, Bryan.

Bryan Burdick: Dana, thanks for having me.

Gardner: It seems that people, whether they're buying consumer goods, small business supplies -- anything from Gorilla Glue to guided missiles -- are using search at some point in this process. Some people start and end with search. They actually buy the products through a search process. I want to start by understanding a little bit about the survey itself and the fact that it’s the second survey that’s been done on this B2B search activity, the first being in 2004.

So, let’s go to Enquiro with Gord. Tell us a little bit about the history and some of the major bullet points of this particular survey?

Hotchkiss: As you said, we did the original survey in 2004 and, at the time, there wasn't a lot of research out there about search in general, even on the consumer side. There was virtually nothing on the B2B side. We knew search was important, just from what our clients were saying and the results we had had, but we hadn’t done anything extensive enough outside our client base to start to quantify how important it was.

The first survey was an attempt to do that. It certainly proved that search was important. We found that online activity, in particular that connected with search activity, was consistent in a large percentage of purchases. In 2007, we added more insight to the methodology. We wanted to understand the different roles that are typical in B2B purchases -- economic buyers versus technical buyers versus user buyers. We also wanted to get more understanding of the different phases of the buying cycle.

We structured the survey so that we could slice the data based on those parameters and get more insight into those areas. As far as the main takeaways from the study, obviously online activity is more important than ever. In fact, we asked respondents to indicate from a list of over 30 influencers what was most important to them in making the purchase decision. Online factors, such as interaction with the vendor Website and interaction with the search engine were right up there with the traditional winner, word of mouth. What we see is a real link between those and looking for objective information and specific detail.

A lot of that search activity happens on specific properties, and we’ll be diving into that a little bit later in the podcast. We did notice an evolution of behavior as you move through the funnel, and the nature of the interactions with the different online resources changes how you navigate to them and how you go to different sites for information. But, online research was consistent through the entire process, from awareness right through to purchase.

There’s a lot of back and forth. Offline factors influence online activity and vice-versa. So, we saw a merging of the online and the offline worlds in making these decisions and trying to come to what’s the right decision for your company or what’s the right product or service.

Gardner: Tell us a little bit about Enquiro. You are a marketing, consulting, and research firm. Is that correct?

Hotchkiss: Yes. We work with clients in putting together their search campaigns in the B2B space, but we also have an active research arm. So, we're continually doing research primarily on the usability and qualitative analysis side, but we do survey work as well. The purpose of that is to provide more insight into how consumers use search and how businesses use search to make buying decisions.

Gardner: Three years between these surveys is probably not a lot for many businesses, but it’s a huge amount of time in the search industry. What would you say was the biggest difference in your results and findings over this three-year period?

Hotchkiss: Surprisingly, we didn’t notice huge trend differences in the three-year period. If anything, we saw increased reliance on online factors and probably just more activity online and more interactions with sites, but it was the continuation of a trend we saw in 2004. We didn’t see any big shifts. We just found increased reliance on online to do that research.

When we say "increased reliance," we're probably talking 10 percentage points up over the three years. So, if 65 percent of the people were doing it in 2004, 75 percent of the people are doing it now. That’s primarily where we saw the trends going.

Gardner: And, you say that that you're also seeing search applied to this process in different ways and different facets. For example, word of mouth would tip someone off to go look for something, and the first way that they look for it is by using search.

Hotchkiss: Yes. When we looked at the different phases of the buying cycle, it starts with awareness. You become aware that you need something. There was a high percentage of people -- in the high 60-percent range -- who said, "Once I become aware that I need something, the first place I'm going to go is the search engine to start looking for it."

A lot of that traffic is going to end up on Google. It was the overwhelming choice among general search engines for B2B buyers.

But, as you move through the process, you start doing what we call a "landscape search." The first search is to get the lay of the land to figure out the information sites that have the information you are looking for. Who are the main vendors playing in this space? Where are the best bets to go and get more information to help make this purchase decision?

So, those first searches tend to be fairly generic -- shorter key phrases -- just to get the lay of the land to figure out where to go. As you progress, search tends to become more of a navigational shortcut, and we’ve seen this activity increase over the last two to three years. Increasingly, we're using search engines to get us from point A to point B online.

As you get into the buying process, you’re familiar with the vendor site. You’ve been on the site. You’ve checked different product information pages. As you come back to that research process, you say, "I really want to find that product spec sheet that I saw on this vendor site." A lot of that navigation to those specific pages happens through a search engine. So, there are multiple touch points through the process.

Gardner: Now, you did this search in March, and you surveyed 1,086 people, North Americans, mostly women -- 63 percent -- average age 43 years old, with 67 percent of them having at least attended university.

Hotchkiss: Right.

Gardner: Can you tell us little bit more about these people? Are these people that you acquired through strictly business activities? How did you know that they were in a purchasing mode?

Hotchkiss: When we structured the study, we used our sampling partner, Survey Sampling International, for access to their B2B decision-maker panel. In two different parts of the survey, we asked, “Are you currently considering a purchase in excess of a thousand dollars?” That was a qualifying question. If they answered yes, they got to continue the survey.

That’s how we determined what role they were playing in this purchase that was happening right now. What were they considering purchasing? What was influencing them? We wanted to use a purchase process they were in the middle of, because it would obviously be fresh in their minds and they could really tell us what they were going through, as far as what influenced them.

We also wanted to get a retroactive view of a successful transaction. So, in the second part of the survey, we asked them to recall a transaction they had made in the past 12 months. We wanted to see whether that initial search led to a successful purchase down the road, and, at the end of the road, how the different factors influenced them. So, we actually approached them from a couple of different angles.

Gardner: Now, 85 percent of these people say they're using online search for some aspect of this purchasing process. It strikes me that this involves trillions of dollars worth of goods. These are big companies and, in some cases, buying lots of goods at over a hundred thousand dollars a whack. Do you concur that we're talking about trillions of dollars of B2B goods now being impacted significantly by the search process?

Hotchkiss: Absolutely. The importance of this is maybe the most mind-numbing fact to contemplate. Traditionally, the B2B space has been a little slow to move into the search arena. Traditionally, in the search arena, the big advertisers tend to be travel or financial products.

B2B is just starting to understand how integral search is to all this activity. When you think of the nature of the B2B purchase, risk avoidance is a huge issue. You want to make sure that whatever decisions you make are well-researched and well-considered purchases. That naturally leads to a lot of online interaction.

Gardner: I suppose if I am making a $100,000 purchases, and I make a mistake, I am not going to be around for long. Right?

Hotchkiss: Exactly. The other thing is that we don’t tend to be as emotionally involved with the B2B purchase. Things like branding play different roles than when you're doing consumer purchases. The brand affinity is something you might have if it’s an area where you don’t have a lot of experience. It may be a new need that’s coming on the horizon for your business. You are really starting from Square One, and that’s the perfect place for search to plug in and be the solution when you start researching those purchases.

Gardner: Right. These folks are looking for practical approaches and real information. Let’s go to Bryan Burdick at ZoomInfo.

This is growing quickly as an overall trend, but ZoomInfo, which is focused on business search, is growing much more rapidly. What’s driving your growth at ZoomInfo, and how does that relate to this B2B search activity?

Burdick: The business information search is a primary factor driving our growth. Our company right now is growing on two fronts. One is our traditional paid-search model, where we have subscription services focused on people information that is targeted at salespeople and recruiters as a source for candidates and prospects.

The more rapidly growing piece of our business is the advertising-driven business information search engine, which I think is a really interesting trend related to the concept you guys were just talking about. Not only does the B2B advertiser spend lots of money today trying to reach out, but the B2B searcher has new tools, services, and capabilities that provide a richer, better, more efficient search than they’ve had through the traditional search engines.

Gardner: By far, the largest player in this is Google with, according to the Enquiro survey, 78 percent use by this group of respondents. Way down the line was Yahoo!, and then far below that was MSN. It strikes me that Google is a general search engine, and yet we are asking for very specific business information.

Bryan, do you expect that we are going to see some sort of a specialization or a cleaving between general search and more vertical specialized search?

Burdick: Absolutely, and, in fact, that’s really ZoomInfo’s mission -- to do for the business-information search world what the Expedia or Travelocity did for travel search. When you think about it, you can actually go to Google and find an airplane ticket, but why would you?

It’s so much more efficient to go to one of these vertical search engines that are looking at the databases, looking at the data, and indexing it in a much more efficient way. You're starting to see that in a lot of other verticals. Travel has been the quickest to adopt that, but everything from business information, like ZoomInfo, to podcasts with Podzinger, and other types of vertical searches, have been focusing on a niche and organizing the content more efficiently.

Hotchkiss: One thing we found in the survey is that there's a natural evolution through the process. Although you might start on Google as you are trying to find those information sites, quite often it’s the verticals that people work into as they are starting to look for specific, more granular information on the companies they're thinking of doing business with. That’s where ZoomInfo and other vertical players fit a need.

Gardner: I suppose another thing that seems the same from 2004 to 2007 is the importance of a supplier’s Website. According to your survey findings, people are very interested in word of mouth. They use the search engine to move from that point to gather more information, but they're very quickly interested in solid, simple, straightforward, text-based information from the suppliers themselves. I suppose that underscores the need for sellers to have a very strong Website.

Hotchkiss: That was a really strong finding, and not really surprising. It made sense, but I think how important the straightforward information was to the people doing the research was somewhat surprising. It’s one of those things where you get findings in research and then afterwards, when you apply common sense to it, you say, "Yeah, that just makes sense."

But, remember these searchers are out to gather information for an organizational buying model. They are gathering information that will, in a lot of cases, be passed on to other individuals to help them make the decision as a group.

You don’t necessarily want to sit through a linear presentation of information, like an online video, or even a podcast, if your intent is just to pickup specific data and pass it along. Now, if you are the user, and this is that something you are going to be using, you may be a lot more open to a linear how-to demo. But, it’s important to match the content on your site to the types of buyers and individuals who are gathering the information.

The takeaway we got from this was to make sure you're covering the basics first. Make sure that you're getting the clear concise product information out. In a lot of cases, you know you are going to be compared to the competition. Why not enable some of that to happen on your site and make the buyer's job easier by arming them with the necessary equipment.

The number one thing that came across as desirable was pricing information, which is really tough for B2B marketers to put on the site, because in a lot of cases these are complex solutions. But, what the buyers are looking for is qualifying it in a budget range.

Is this a $10,000 purchase, a $100,000 purchase or a million dollar purchase? I need to know that to qualify, so I can move on. Please give me that information. It can be ranges. It doesn’t have to be specific, but I need to be able to qualify it.

Burdick: Dana, I would add that some of the typical mistakes that a B2B marketer will make from a search-engine marketing perspective is jumping too quickly or focusing too much on the actual advertising piece. They need to do that, but sometimes they forget about the search engine optimization. Very often, they leave that up to the technical team, which may optimize the search or the site in ways that aren't optimal from a marketing perspective.

Then, as Gord was saying, they get the user, or the potential customer, in there and the customer gets lost on their own site, searching for the type of information that they're looking for. It’s not like a consumer model, where the consumer already knows, in most cases that they are looking for a DVD player or whatever it is. They may even have a model number, and they're looking for the best price online. It’s much more of an information-gathering process in the B2B case.

Gardner: Perhaps the takeaway here would be that people want to get just the facts upfront and they want a ballpark figure, but they also want to be able to use search to get to that information fairly quickly.

So, if you’re going to optimize your site, your key information can’t be 18 pages deep into the search process, but you also have to consider that factual information needs to be as accessible as your main branding page.

Burdick: Absolutely.

Hotchkiss: One more point on that. A lot of B2B marketers like to capture as much information about a lead as early in the process as possible, so it can be handed over to the sales department, which can close the sale.

But, what happens in a B-to-B purchase is that the first touch point with your vendor Website is typically not the decision maker, the ultimate decision maker? It tends to be somebody who is gathering information to help arm the company to make that eventual purchase decision.

So, if you push to establish contact with that person, they're not ready to establish contact with the vendor, because they don’t have the buying power. Even if you do push to get it, your salespeople are spending a lot of time following up on leads that aren’t qualified buyers. They have to retrench down the road and try to re-establish connections with the person who has the economic power.

So, it’s really a "date," and, in a lot of cases, it’s a long series of dates. If you push too fast you are just going to push the prospect away.

Gardner: You don’t want to propose on the first date.

Hotchkiss: Yeah.

Gardner: On the other hand, one of the findings from the survey was that 50 percent convert to a sale online. So, that means that when the research, winnowing, triage, and the comparative shopping are over, the economic buyer, who is empowered to make a decision, will go back online and consummate the deal. Does that make sense?

Hotchkiss: Yeah. Here's some further insight into that, because we saw that number surprising when we did the overall data. When we pulled the data apart, we found that a lot of those purchases tended to be things like computer systems, where they might have been buying through a Dell or someone like that.

Gardner: The direct model.

Hotchkiss: We thought that was a really high online conversion rate. As we looked at the data a little more, we saw that in a lot of cases it was smaller software purchases or system-based hardware purchases. That made a little more sense, as we went down that road. There was a fairly strong manufacturing component, where people were buying parts and different things. In those cases, a lot of those purchases are made through an electronic marketplace. We're seeing that as an increasing trend too, e-commerce-enabled market places.

Gardner: I suppose it's also logical that when the price or the total purchase price is less than $50,000 or closer to $10,000, they’ll be more likely to do that online confirmation and make a purchase. To me, this says that small- to medium-sized businesses selling small types of goods should be very focused on search and B2B online activities. Does that follow?

Hotchkiss: Everybody needs to be focused on search. I can’t see an exception. You mentioned the percentage that said they would go online. We segmented out the group that didn’t indicate they go online to see what was unique about them.

The only thing unique about them was their age. They tended to be older buyers and tended to be with smaller organizations, where the CEO was more actively involved in the purchase decision. That was really the only variants we saw. If it’s a generational thing, then obviously that percentage is going to get smaller every year.

Burdick: Dana, could I ask Gord a follow-up question to that?

Gardner: Of course.

Burdick: I'm curious whether, as you dug into the data, you saw any differences between online follow-throughs to purchase on hard goods versus services. I'd think that people buy computers online, but if they're buying services from a B2B company, that tends to be offline.

Hotchkiss: When we were looking at influencing factors, B2B services was the one where word of mouth edged out online factors by a significant margin. When you're trying to retain a service, word of mouth is still very influential. In pretty much every other category, online was right up there with word of mouth, in some cases edging it out as an influencing factor.

Gardner: Okay, another number from this was that 95 percent said they use search to find what they want at some point or another, but 37 percent were still seeking other sources. There seems to be a recognition that search is very powerful, that it’s a tool that shouldn’t be ignored under any circumstances, but that it's not getting the entire job done. Bryan, I wonder if you could respond to that. What else needs to happen in order for these people to get what they need?

Burdick: The short answer is they just need to come to ZoomInfo.com. Seriously, I don’t think it’s a matter of needing more information, but, in some cases, finding better information. When you think about the traditional search engines -- the Googles and the Yahoos! of the world -- there are so many consumer-oriented search transactions on a day-to-day basis that they have optimized their experience with the consumer in mind.

Search engines like ZoomInfo and some of the other business-information search engines are taking a different approach and optimizing the search experience, and therefore the relevance of the results, with the business-information searcher in mind. You can much more efficiently and quickly get to the information you're looking for.

The simple example that I like to use is that if you search for "enterprise routers" on Google, you are going to get 32 million results that will include everything from Enterprise Rent-A-Car to the latest episodes of Star Trek. Search for that on a business search engine like ZoomInfo and you'll get 150 companies that sell enterprise routers or manufacture enterprise routers. It just becomes a much more efficient process.

Gardner: Well, even the alternatives cited in this survey are still very general. There was Business.com and Thomas Register. This is every good under the sun. It might as well be a general search. KnowledgeStorm was also mentioned, but it's very specific to IT. It seems like there’s a whole category that needs to be filled here around vertical business search.

Burdick: The original survey that Enquiro did for us in 2004 was a key factor in our decision to move to more of a search-engine model, because what we see happening is the same kind of evolution that happened with the big search engines way back. It’s happening now in the vertical-search categories, where search engines started out as directories or, if you think back to Overture in their early days, totally paid listings.

Eventually those two forces came together to provide a best-of-both-worlds situation, where you’ve got not only great relevance on the results, but also great relevance on the targeted ads, and now that’s starting to happen in the verticals as well.

So, you’re starting out with some of the business-directory sites or the business paid-listing sites, because those are easy to do. As the technology gets more sophisticated and you can provide more relevant results for the business information seeker, you are delivering the value that the information seeker is looking for. Plus, you can target the ads better and provide an overall better experience.

Gardner: Let's go back to Gord on that. The survey found a larger percentage of people looked at the organic results on the left, but they were pretty much limited to the top four. A smaller percentage, about 12 or 13 percent, said that they look over to the right-hand side for the ads. That 13 percent might sound small, but compared to a click-through rate in a Web advertising model of usually less than 1 or 2 percent, 13 percent is still a pretty large chunk of people. What’s your impression of the impact of the advertising model in search for B2B activities?

Hotchkiss: Those percentages, by the way, aren’t that different from what we've seen in consumer-based research. Those breaks between organic and sponsored tend to remain fairly consistent across a number of different channels. One thing that’s just golden about search is it will connect a motivated and engaged user with the content they are looking for.

If that content is provided by a relevant ad, then they're open to that. In fact depending on where they are in the buying cycle, they may even be biased toward that, because they are ready to get information from somebody who is trying to provide them what they need to decide whether this is the thing they need to buy.

There's a totally different interaction when you're on a search engine actively engaged in a task and actively looking for information. You're far more receptive to messaging at that point. You're actively looking for it. And this seems to be slowly breaking into the consciousness of most advertisers. They're getting it, but they're getting it slowly. Anyone who moves into the search space, if they do search in a smart way and they capitalize on the potential of it, is just amazed by the return they get on this.

Gardner: Let’s beg a little more from these results than was intended. I started to see in the findings some patterns about typical processes, about how people would go about this activity -- the awareness, the research, the purchasing, and so forth. It seemed to me that there was, on one hand, a pattern of word of mouth that led to a search, that led to a Website, that then led to a refined search based on what they found, which then led to a hand-off to a purchasing activity by maybe a different department or individual.

There also seem to be offline influences, perhaps trades shows, perhaps traditional sales calls and activities, but that also took into consideration word of mouth that then identified what to search on, and so on. Am I reading too much into this, Gord, or were there patterns of process around the use of search in the purchasing activity?

Hotchkiss: It goes back to what I said before. Search tends to be the thing that connects you, as you move through the buying process, and it’s used in different ways and places as you progress through that. As far as identifiable patterns and usage behavior, if you did an end-up study of a large enough dataset, patterns would emerge. They always do emerge, but I'm not sure we would be confident enough diving into this particular dataset to try to tease that out of it.

What we did see is that B2B buying decisions are tremendously complex when they are compared to an individual consumer buying decision, where you have one person going through all the phases. You have multiple individuals influenced by different factors going back and forth.

What is consistent in that is whatever is influencing you -- whether it’s online or offline, a discussion with a colleague or a recommendation by a paid consultant -- there tends to be a mirror activity, in which whatever happens offline generates some kind of online activity that typically is initiated through a search engine. Then, you pull that information back, and it dances back and forth between the online and the offline world.

Gardner: So, there’s a barrier here in some senses. I'm sure most companies, especially the larger ones, have a standard operating procedure about how purchases will happen. It will be form x, y, z, and it will go through process review a, b, c, and then we’ll have to get signatures from individual g, b, h. How can we bridge this value that people see in search, and somehow bake that into a procedural process inside of an enterprise. Or are we asking too much here?

Hotchkiss: One of the interesting things, being both a researcher and a vendor, is we get to see both sides of it. We have access to more information than ever before, and buyers out there are armed with better information before they ever initiate contact with a vendor. They are gathering a lot of information and then they are trying to cram it into an existing buying process, whether that’s an RFP process or whatever.

So, like most things with the Internet, the traditional systems are being challenged by this new access to information that we never had before.

Over the next two to three years, what we're going to see is organizational buying processes being streamlined and being able to incorporate the fact that you have better informed buyers than you may have had before. The whole RFP process was to eliminate risk. The reason was make sure that you are considering alternatives and to make sure that you are almost forced to gather the information you need to make a dispassionate judgment about what was the best choice.

Now, in a lot of cases, the decision is already 80 percent made before the RFP process ever begins. Somebody has researched a vendor, has a very strong feeling about the vendor but now has to try to fit that into the established procedure, and they say, "Okay, now we've got to go out and find two or three more alternatives."

Heaven help the other two or three alternatives that are getting involved in that process. They have to go through the whole dance, but usually the preferred vendor on the front end gets the business on the back end. The other two or three players are just used as negotiating chips to try to get the price down. It’s interesting to watch how information from the Internet is changing virtually everything out there. This is no exception.

Gardner: This might be a little bit out in the future, but the role of search could morph into the role of auction and brokering activities. Does that make sense?

Hotchkiss: Yes, and for players in the space -- I suppose ZoomInfo as well -- if we can streamline the marketplace, if we can take this access to the information and make the buyer’s job easier, that’s a tremendous saving. I would hate to think of the number of man-hours that are invested internally in an organization for a fairly major purchase decision. How much more efficient you can make that process by simply empowering them with the information that they are going out to look for anyway?

Gardner: Bryan, you said that the Enquiro survey in 2004 made an impact on ZoomInfo in terms of its direction. Have the findings from 2007 had a similar influence? What new directions might you be heading in?

Burdick: As Gord had said earlier, the findings in 2007 reinforced what they had already learned three years ago. So, in one sense, it confirmed our own strategic direction as well. We re-launched the ZoomInfo.com site back on April 1, and moved into more of a traditional search-engine model, where all of the content, all of the search capabilities on ZoomInfo.com are free and subsidized by advertising.

We’ve seen that piece of our business take off like crazy in the last couple of months. Search traffic has grown dramatically. We’re up to close to 5 million unique visitors a month doing about 16 or 17 million searches a month on our site. All that is really driven by this need, this desire, among B2B buyers to find a more efficient process to get at this type of buying information.

Gardner: What advice would you have for those folks that are on the selling side of this? What should they do to position themselves in order to take better advantage of what’s occurring on the buyer side, particularly, in their use of search?

Burdick: There are a couple of landmines or traps to avoid. The first is to try to avoid competing with the consumer brands, either on the traditional engines or with the same types of keywords. If you are buying the same keyword as a consumer brand is buying on one of the traditional engines, you are typically going to get drowned out by the noise.

The other thing is to make sure that your own search marketing is coordinated with channel partners. I’ve seen lots of examples where the manufacturer is buying a set of key words and their value-added resellers are buying the same keywords. They end up bidding up the same keywords just to attract the same eyeballs. At the end of the day, the manufacturer is going to direct them to one of the resellers anyway.

Gardner: So that leads to confusion, rather than streamlining that particular process.

Burdick: Exactly. The other key thing, which we already touched on, is leveraging not only on the marketing side, but the search-engine optimization of your site in general, and optimizing the search-for-information experience that the buyer has once they get to your site.

Hotchkiss: One thing I would add on a more fundamental note is to make sure that the perspective you are using to evaluate your search strategy is the customer’s perspective and not your internal one. One of the common pitfalls we see is companies get into a bad case of "internal think." They look at everything from their internal perspective, and they are not shifting the looking glass 180 degrees and looking at it from their prospect’s perspective.

It’s amazing how enlightening it can be, when you start looking at what types of sites they are going to. You need to catch their attention, and know what kind of messaging you have to present and what kind of onsite experience you have to present, once you are successful in capturing the click. If you can force yourself to see from that perspective, you're going to do more to improve the effectiveness of your campaign.

Gardner: Well, thanks very much. We’ve been discussing the recent survey by Enquiro Search Solutions. It was Enquiro’s 2007 B2B search survey, and to help understand it better we’ve been joined by Gord Hotchkiss, the president and CEO of Enquiro. Thanks, Gord. Is there anything meaningful in the survey that we didn’t cover and that you think we should?

Hotchkiss: The original release covers the high-level findings. What we're working on now are three follow-up white papers that will be available on the site through the next three to four months. We're going to take each of the three buying roles that a lot of people within the survey fell within -- the economic buyer, the technical buyer, and the user buyer.

We're going to do insight from that particular buyer on how to search more effectively, plod through the process a little bit more, and how those hand-offs happen from role to role. I imagine there are going to be new insights out of that. We're taking different slices of the data. So, for those of you who are interested in that, keep checking out on Enquiro.com and we’ll ping you as those white papers become available.

Gardner: Terrific. And we’ve also been joined by Bryan Burdick, the chief operating officer at ZoomInfo. Is there anything that you’d like to cap the discussion with, Bryan?

Burdick: Only that I think from a vertical business information search perspective, that we’re really in the first inning here. A lot of interesting trends and enhancements are going to be coming down the road. One in particular that may have an influence in the next year or two is the community aspect within the search.

Gord, talked earlier about how there are multiple people that influence the B2B buying decision. I think that you’ll start to see a marriage of, not only B2B search, but also online community and a factoring into that whole process. Then, who knows where we’ll go from there? But I appreciate you having us on.

Gardner: I suppose that this notion of word of mouth being so important in shaping people’s direction that you might use search to find the word of mouth.

Burdick: Right, the word of community.

Gardner: There it is. Okay, well thank you, Bryan. This is Dana Gardner, principal analyst at Interarbor Solutions. You've been listening to a sponsored BriefingsDirect podcast. Thanks for joining.

Listen to the podcast here. Watch the video here. Sponsor: ZoomInfo.

Transcript of Dana Gardner’s BriefingsDirect podcast on B2B search usage, trends and future direction. Copyright Interarbor Solutions, LLC, 2005-2007. All rights reserved.